Straight Axle troubles

[ICEMAN6166]

ripsnorter,

Take the advise from elpolacko.........

I've added the steering damper already - which probably cured 50% of the whip......I'm in the process of installing the 2 degree caster aluminum shims....(by Lakewood)

The wandering is most likely cause by the fact that the axle is straight up & down - 90 degrees to the roadbed. When you install the shims you'll get back the stability youre looking for.

Wider tires, from the originals, also adds to the problem.

Try these 2 suggestions first. I think you be happy.

The last item could be the adjustment in the steering box its self.

PAUL aka/ PACO

I am curious why you say the axle is straight up and down? Ford installed these with caster and camber built into the axle so adding shims would only be neccessary if something was wrong or damaged. Just curious why you would suggest doing something like that instead of checking the truck out and fixing the problem the correct way? I prefer to fix problems rather than mask them with a shotgun approach to repairs. If you can't find anything wrong with the front end you should take the truck in and have a qualified alignment shop check the alignment and adjust if it is needed. I have actually have very few straight axle trucks that had lost their caster or camber alignment as the axles are very strong. Now, if you have swapped axles from another truck or lowered your truck then you do need to have the axle adjusted but shims really are not the correct way to do and a qualified shop should be handling the adjustment. Hawkrod

its fixing the cart without looking for a problem with the horse.
all items should be within factory specs or you will have issues

if you have slop and add wedges you are not doing anything to help yourself out.
i look at the trucks i have that are parts trucks and not going to be driven and this is what i see
1. the most common, bad bushings in the springs, front or rear.
if your front end is tight and the rear end is not you will wander.
2.loose kingpins,and bad tie rod ends and this applies to the twin i as well
3.loose wheel bearings
4.gearbox slop.
5. new steering shock but bad other parts.instead of controlling the steering from the steering wheel, you install an aftermarket part to do the job on the axle and center tube of the tie rods

if you have loose kingpins and loose spring bushings, you have a "mexican jumping bean"

if you have loose steering components gearbox, bearings and or tie rods you have "runaround Sue"

ford f100/250 2wd specs out of the 61 factory manual:
caster= 3 degrees
king pin inclination= 4 degrees
camber=1 degree
toe in = 1/16"
finally, there were no radial tires when these were new, so the only thing you get from them is a smoother ride when the tires are cold and a quieter ride from the radial tread.they used tall skinny tires and skinny wheels.wheel offset deviation puts the center of the tire in a different place in relation to the axle.not a big deal if you dont get too offset, and if everything else is correct.
same goes for the sway bar, while its a good upgrade, its only going to help if the rest is correct.

Steve, you take these same front ends off when you install your product, what do you see as far as condition of the original axle or are you just junking them without autopsys?
im curious i take broken things apart to see why even if i wont be using them again.

[62 UNI]

Hawkrod,

To answer you specifically..........

As you can see by my truck....it IS lowered. So perhaps I spoke in relation to MY own experience with my truck.

But as to the being 90 degrees to the roadbed this was based on MY vehicle......which appears NOT to have had any front end damage nor a replacement axle (but could have...I'm NOT the original owner) and the digital protractor I set on the spindle (at the king pin) while the truck was off the ground & the rocker was measured at 0 degrees.

SO......based on MY truck & information from a few reliable, qualified people I was told to try the 2 degree shims (similar to what elpolako suggested also - which you made no mention to?).

As for my self being qualified .......I sir am indeed. I don't think I made a "shotgun approach" to the repair - I made a suggestion based on my vehicle. He never said if his truck was stock, lowered or lifted.

But what I DON'T see from your reply was the correct way to adjust the axle. It's one thing to cast a shadow on my suggestion with obscure ford axle information & it's another to make a viable suggestion to the original problem (which I think I did) for the owner to try himself to fix (which is why he might have posted the question in the first place).

I joined this forum to possibly get information & to possibly to assist in a problem that was relitive to my truck that possibly would help others......that I believe I did too.

ripsnorter - if you think my suggestion is off base then PLEASE do not use it.

Paul

[Hawkrod]

The correct way to adjust the axle is to use the appropriate adjustment tool. Most shops that do big trucks still have them but so do good front end shops that have been around for a while. The correct way to adjust a front axle is to bend it. It is the normal process and how it is done every day in big trucks and is also the way it used to be done on all cars. Fords from the teens through the 40's were all like this. Lowering your truck may have changed the angle but when your truck was new it was adjusted at the factory and was not 0 degrees. The biggest concern I would have with suggesting to just shim it is unless the vehicle was identical to yours it could really cause problems. Normally if an adjustment is needed it is not both sides. By shimming both sides all you would do is aggravate a problem that already exists. I am sorry but shims are not a great idea even if everything else is perfect and should be avoided on a front axle if at all possible. It is actually illegal in many states to even use a shim or spacer on a front axle. Hawkrod

[64fordf100292v8]

I too would like to know what the CORRECT way to adjust a solid axles caster is, ive always seen shops use SHIMS. I know my caster is also close to 0 degrees as my truck sits higher in the rear than the front which would have the effect of rotating the axle forward so I dont think adding a couple degrees of caster is going to hurt. I also think a much stiffer tie rod would help these old trucks, ever watched your original one while having some one else turn the wheel left to right? That thing is puny! Mine flexs quite a bit.

[62 UNI]

Hawkrod,

Thanks for your reply & added information.......I'll check with my local area (big) truck alignment shop & see what they think about mine (every other wear part has been replaced).

I'll also check on the legality of the shims......here in GA.

Paul

[ICEMAN6166]

seems we are discussing apples and oranges.i decide to see what Henrys book said.(1961 shop manual)

it has a picture of the tools used for bending the axle.(camber)
there are 2 different ones, for increase or decrease, f1001a, and b respectively.(except spicer 44-4F)
in all cases the bend should be made between the front spring pad and the spindle,otherwise the spring pads will be thrown out of parrallel with each other.

the caster angle is controlled by the angle of the front spring pads,and changes as the load on the front axle increases or the springs sag.the spring pads must be parrallel to each other.any change in the caster angle results from a twisted axle or spring sag,DO NOT CHANGE CASTER ANGLE ON THE SPICER 44-4F AXLE BY BENDING THE AXLE.
If the springs have sagged,the caster angle can be adjusted by REPLACING THE SPRINGS or by installing tapered wedges between the springs and spring pads.AN EQUAL NUMBER OF WEDGES SHOULD BE INSTALLED ON BOTH SIDES.position the thick edge of the spacer toward the rear of the truck to increase the caster,or toward the front to decrease the caster.WHEN INSTALLING WEDGES,BE SURE THAT THE FRONT SPRING TIE BOLTS EXTEND THRU THE WEDGES ANCHORING THEM TO THE AXLE.


this tells me that you really should replace the springs rather than install wedges unless you have new springs and have put in a heavier engine.

[62 UNI]

Well it's hard to challange Henry himself.....

Not only are all of my front end moving parts new (including the springs when it was lowered) but my original 6 cyl. (per the ser. no.) uni has had a engine update - to a 362 PI with a cast intake & holley carb. In addt. I've added a 53 caddy air cleaner with K & N filter....... & it runs cast iron exhst. manifolds.

So........per the "bible" I'll be trying the 2 degree shims & report back the progress......

ICEMAN6616 - thanks for the clarification - per the actual manual. I was appreciated.

Paul

[Max]

Can you take pics of that? Would be interesting and might definitely be helpful to some.

[Hawkrod]

seems we are discussing apples and oranges.i decide to see what Henrys book said.(1961 shop manual)

it has a picture of the tools used for bending the axle.(camber)
there are 2 different ones, for increase or decrease, f1001a, and b respectively.(except spicer 44-4F)
in all cases the bend should be made between the front spring pad and the spindle,otherwise the spring pads will be thrown out of parrallel with each other.

the caster angle is controlled by the angle of the front spring pads,and changes as the load on the front axle increases or the springs sag.the spring pads must be parrallel to each other.any change in the caster angle results from a twisted axle or spring sag,DO NOT CHANGE CASTER ANGLE ON THE SPICER 44-4F AXLE BY BENDING THE AXLE.
If the springs have sagged,the caster angle can be adjusted by REPLACING THE SPRINGS or by installing tapered wedges between the springs and spring pads.AN EQUAL NUMBER OF WEDGES SHOULD BE INSTALLED ON BOTH SIDES.position the thick edge of the spacer toward the rear of the truck to increase the caster,or toward the front to decrease the caster.WHEN INSTALLING WEDGES,BE SURE THAT THE FRONT SPRING TIE BOLTS EXTEND THRU THE WEDGES ANCHORING THEM TO THE AXLE.


this tells me that you really should replace the springs rather than install wedges unless you have new springs and have put in a heavier engine.

I want to also point out that caster is also adjusted by bending the axle but the tool is different than that use for adjusting camber. Prior to 1948 Ford axles were not adjustable by wedges and also as I noted, some states do not allow them so a good shop will have tools to make either adjustment. Hawkrod

[Comet]

I am interested to see (and a little worried too) how my truck will drive now that the axle has been dropped. When I took the axle out, it did have shims. It has a heavier motor and rev. eye springs when I bought it. It might be awhile before I get this all dialed in again...

[ELpolacko]

Screw the manual, that and Henry had nothing to do with it. It was all Edsel's game at that point.

Three degrees of caster is fine for trucks traveling at sub freeway speeds. Adding two degree shims will not harm your truck. In fact what increasing your caster to five degrees will do is add to the stability of your truck at highway speeds. (freeway speeds being in the 75 MPH range)

On earlier Ford cars we run as much as 7 degrees!

If you are running non-stock wheels and tires all factory alignment specs can be disregarded. If you have modified the suspension front or rear you will need to alter the alignment to get even close to the stock specs.


Ice, I have not pulled apart any trucks recently, but the axles I have pulled in the past are in really decent shape. the only ones I have seen with any axle dammage has been from towing or accidents.

My business partner does a dropped axle service, His assertation is these axles are about as tough as they come. Rarely has he seen one with poor ailgnment without dammage.

[Hawkrod]

Screw the manual, that and Henry had nothing to do with it. It was all Edsel's game at that point.

Three degrees of caster is fine for trucks traveling at sub freeway speeds. Adding two degree shims will not harm your truck. In fact what increasing your caster to five degrees will do is add to the stability of your truck at highway speeds. (freeway speeds being in the 75 MPH range)

On earlier Ford cars we run as much as 7 degrees!

If you are running non-stock wheels and tires all factory alignment specs can be disregarded. If you have modified the suspension front or rear you will need to alter the alignment to get even close to the stock specs.


Ice, I have not pulled apart any trucks recently, but the axles I have pulled in the past are in really decent shape. the only ones I have seen with any axle dammage has been from towing or accidents.

My business partner does a dropped axle service, His assertation is these axles are about as tough as they come. Rarely has he seen one with poor ailgnment without dammage.

All very true and correct which is why it is so important to use a knowledgable shop when playing with a front end. The beauty of a Ford truck is that once its set, it pretty much stays that way forever! LOL Other than wear items you will never lose alignment unless you do actual damage! Hawkrod

[ICEMAN6166]

Screw the manual, that and Henry had nothing to do with it. It was all Edsel's game at that point.

Three degrees of caster is fine for trucks traveling at sub freeway speeds. Adding two degree shims will not harm your truck. In fact what increasing your caster to five degrees will do is add to the stability of your truck at highway speeds. (freeway speeds being in the 75 MPH range)

On earlier Ford cars we run as much as 7 degrees!

If you are running non-stock wheels and tires all factory alignment specs can be disregarded. If you have modified the suspension front or rear you will need to alter the alignment to get even close to the stock specs.


Ice, I have not pulled apart any trucks recently, but the axles I have pulled in the past are in really decent shape. the only ones I have seen with any axle dammage has been from towing or accidents.

My business partner does a dropped axle service, His assertation is these axles are about as tough as they come. Rarely has he seen one with poor ailgnment without dammage.

it was not my intention to discuss alignment on modified suspensions, but only to say that there is a proper way to get the correct alignment and that if your unmodified truck is within specification, it will behave properly.

i have never seen a bent straight axle on any of the trucks i parted out
only worn out components.
it takes quite a hit to bend a straight axle, even a 4x4 one.
the twin i beams are pretty tough too, and i have only ever seen the stamped radius arms bent, not the forged.the forged ones will rip the bracket on the frame out before they bend, the stamped ones bend in the middle or break off at the axle attaching point.

[ELpolacko]

Ice, the problem with using OEM specs in today's modern world is that tire technology and road conditions have changed.

All you have to do is look through a chassis alignment book and you will see in the early 80s caster settings started to creep up. In as recent as the 70's most light trucks were using bias ply, hard carcass tires. Useage of higher caster settings with these tires would increase steering input effort. With power steering being only an option in those days (if at all) it was just generally accepted that 3-5 degrees was very adequate. Besides, not many people even considered driving thier truck over 60 mph, ever.

All throughout the 70's and 80's we had the government and special interest saftey nazis after us with the nation wide implimentation of the 55 MPH speed limit! The fuel crunch wasn't helping us a bit either. Engineering money was better spent on saftey items and emmissions controls. Ford, not one to change very rapidly in suspension advances stuck to what they knew regardless of what the world was doing around them.

By the early 80's radial technology was creeping in but in the light truck market the engineering stalwarts refused to change. By the late 80's and early 90's minds were slowly convinced that an increase in caster gave the trucks better high speed stability. The increase was necessary because of the incresed contact patch and squirm that the radial tire offers. Remember "radial tuned suspension"? The flexible sidewall and steel belt of the radial have a tendency to find the low spot in the road. To counteract this modern suspension engineers use lower srub-radiuses (king pin centerline to contact patch) higher caster angles and even add in included caster (spindle offset behind the king pin centerline).

For the discussion at hand, I still recomend increasing caster even if you haven't modified the suspension. Chances are most of us are not going to run bias ply tires anylonger. None of us is going to run positive offset wheels to decrease the scrub radius either, in fact just the opposite is going to be true. I have seen many trucks in the gallery here running wider than stock and "reversed" wheels which all increase the scrub radius. These wheels will give you quite a bit of kickback. Whole new can of worms and a discussion for annother day.

Just an example, using my personal experience with the Dodge Dakota, the caster setting on it's initial introduction in 1987 was 2.75 degrees. The same suspension design when it was discontinued for the next generation in 1996 increaced to 3.75 and the sport models saw an increase above 4 degrees.

I just spied my TRW book and saw the same increace from 1980-1994 except they took the mean caster from 2.75 to 6.75 with a maximum setting at 7.75!!

[ICEMAN6166]

Steve, that is interesting and all makes sense.
i have no experience with late model vehicles,newest one i ever had was a 93 f150,in 93 and i owned it for a year before i was back in a bumpside 4x4 again.
most of the paved roads here have no improvement from the 70s, the main highway i drive on is mostly original from 71 except near the south end by the big towns and where some repaving has been done in small sections of a couple miles.the rest are dirt.frost heaves when the ground begins to thaw and studded tire grooves on hills are common occurences.big holes can eat up a suspension of any type if you are not careful.
i have tall skinny tires on original inny rims on my 4x4, they are radials, brand new but other than less road noise and the fact they dont hump until they warm up, there is not a big difference in the overall ride or steering performance.
i had 70s stock wheels and 9.50r 16.5 last summer they did not ride as good as the skinny ones.
the wide tires and wheels that it had when i first got it, before i put it on the 4x4 frame made for a terrible ride, while there was a little movement in the spring bushings, they were not excessively worn.
theres not many places i would drive your truck here.

[ripsnorter]

Heh. looks like I started quite a debate.

My approach to this is:

I only plan on keeping the current frame/suspension/wheels and tires for perhaps another 3-6 months tops. I don't really want to put too much money into something I'm going to be getting rid of soon, unless its unsafe.

I really wanted to know if these trucks had a history of possible problems like mine, for whatever the possible cause.

I've been going through the undercarriage and trying to see what looks worn or loose, and replace if it looks too bad. If, after that, things get too frustrating too drive, I'll take it down to my allignment guys, (been around since the 60s, good folks, should know what theyre doing) and have them take a look at it.

My area of knowledge on vehicles has always been much more in the direction of bodywork, and much less so in mechanical. So all of the information, ideas, and opinions you folks post are a big help and source of inspiration.

Truth be told I've rebuilt the bodies on over a dozen totalled vehicles, paintjobs on older cars, bodywork etc etc, but I dont believe I've ever once even touched a kingpin. So this is all new to me

[ICEMAN6166]

well then Rip, you should bring your truck here, i will do mechanical work if you do the bodywork.i have done all mechanical work and not much bodywork so it would be a good trade.

[ripsnorter]

heh now theres a bit of a jaunt. in the middle of winter too

how bout you bring yours down here instead?

[66fordtrucknut]

I'm with ya, RIP, I have a complete spare front end to rebuild "on the bench" then swap it out on my uni with all new parts, that way I can eliminate anything with having to do with the front end and don't have to disable my truck for long. I got the front end for close to nothing.
Charlie