.just thought I would let you guys know about this because it sure got me excited 
LATER
Chad
rack and pinnon for straight axle
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1st64bigwindow
- Posts: 31
- Joined: July 15, 2006, 11:22 pm
- Location: york PA
rack and pinnon for straight axle
I just bought a new copy of sport truck tonight and found No Limit has a independent suspension for our slicks.So I went to the web page www.nolimit.net and found that he has a power rack and pinnon setup for the straight axle trucks he has it listed for the 57-60 trucks but I am sure they could be used on a slick.I dont have the money for the independent suspension but the p/s thing would be kinda cool .just thought I would let you guys know about this because it sure got me excited
LATER
Chad
.just thought I would let you guys know about this because it sure got me excited LATER
Chad
I want to slap Rob for that one!
There is a reason why you do not see this sort of conversion from any other manufacturer, THEY ARE DANGEROUS!
Not only are you adding weight to your front axle that will degrade ride quality you are adding a moving steering shaft and hoses to the mix. Most steering slip shafts are not designed to handle the added load of suspension movements. If the steering shaft locks, up the next pothole will bend your steering shaft rendering it useless. Then there is the issue of the universal joint angle. The joints available from Borgeson, Flaming River, et-al will not withstand angles exceeding 30 degrees, PERIOD. If your suspension travel takes those joints past 30 degrees they WILL bind and fail. Not to mention the bumpsteer induced by the articulating axle under the frame, your steering wheel will have to match that movement or you will have steer induced input over bumps, AKA BUMPSTEER.
Show me just ONE oem manufacturer that has set up a steering this way and I will eat my words
There is a reason why you do not see this sort of conversion from any other manufacturer, THEY ARE DANGEROUS!
Not only are you adding weight to your front axle that will degrade ride quality you are adding a moving steering shaft and hoses to the mix. Most steering slip shafts are not designed to handle the added load of suspension movements. If the steering shaft locks, up the next pothole will bend your steering shaft rendering it useless. Then there is the issue of the universal joint angle. The joints available from Borgeson, Flaming River, et-al will not withstand angles exceeding 30 degrees, PERIOD. If your suspension travel takes those joints past 30 degrees they WILL bind and fail. Not to mention the bumpsteer induced by the articulating axle under the frame, your steering wheel will have to match that movement or you will have steer induced input over bumps, AKA BUMPSTEER.
Show me just ONE oem manufacturer that has set up a steering this way and I will eat my words
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ICEMAN6166
- Posts: 11470
- Joined: July 11, 2006, 11:28 am
- Location: Dove Creek, Co. elevation 6842
Steve, perhaps you can shed some light as to why folks continue to try to add these type components to achieve something which can be done with a donor i-beam truck.someone on the other site installed a complete i-beam front end on a straight axle truck, seems this would be the easiest and cheapest way to get something workable and safely rated for our trucks.
several different things i have seen done are in my opinion scary and i list them here as lightweight stuff
toyota p.s. box
anything from a mustang 2
neither me or my wife have any interest in power steering, we both drive 4x4s and straight axle trucks and just dont see the need.however having done suspension and body lifts we have dealt with column length and angle issues before so your comments make lots of sense.
if i wanted to have a 61-64 with p.s. i could achieve it easily in my poor excuse for a shop without any great difficultys in a couple days, and be assured it could handle the weight.
this is not any type of comment either for or against the things you make in your shop, as none of that is now or will be in our budget .
the roads here are as such that serious bumpsteering is likely to cause your demise either from going off the road completely or into oncoming traffic.
theres just not enough corners to turn to justify spending time on a conversion to p.s. and frankly we are so use to the manual steering that we feel uncomfortable in anything new.
my end comment is if you are considering doing this, be sure it is safe and can handle the weight of your vehicle.
several different things i have seen done are in my opinion scary and i list them here as lightweight stuff
toyota p.s. box
anything from a mustang 2
neither me or my wife have any interest in power steering, we both drive 4x4s and straight axle trucks and just dont see the need.however having done suspension and body lifts we have dealt with column length and angle issues before so your comments make lots of sense.
if i wanted to have a 61-64 with p.s. i could achieve it easily in my poor excuse for a shop without any great difficultys in a couple days, and be assured it could handle the weight.
this is not any type of comment either for or against the things you make in your shop, as none of that is now or will be in our budget .
the roads here are as such that serious bumpsteering is likely to cause your demise either from going off the road completely or into oncoming traffic.
theres just not enough corners to turn to justify spending time on a conversion to p.s. and frankly we are so use to the manual steering that we feel uncomfortable in anything new.
my end comment is if you are considering doing this, be sure it is safe and can handle the weight of your vehicle.
1966 F250 4x4
1964 Rambler Ambassador 990
Rest in peace departed Slick family members
Cam Milam
Lesley Ferguson
Steve Lopes
John Sutton
1964 Rambler Ambassador 990
Rest in peace departed Slick family members
Cam Milam
Lesley Ferguson
Steve Lopes
John Sutton
Why? Simple ignorace of suspsension design and theory.
Most people these days have driven a modern vehicle with a rack and pinion steering. They drive very well, nicely weighted steering with little effort.
What's not to like?
The problem is rack and pinion steering systems were an advancement of IFS suspensions. A totally different system compared to the beam or split beam axle. Flaming River Industries in conjunction with Dominiator Motorsports has introduced a totally aftermarket split I-beam with a rack and pinion. It does work! Fairly ingenious product but for the effort I highly doubt it would out perform a standard beam axle with similar shocks and springs. The only advantage is the addition of the rack.
A rack and pinion is such a beautifly simple bit of machinery. Given hot rod nature we want to make things better and presented with such a simple part witch by anyone's experience with works very well, it seems natural to want to stick it on anything that steers.
That make any sense?
I seriously belive that a true rebuild of your stock steering gear, king pins and tie rods would benifit you much more than ditching it all in favor of a rack.
:Below is an addendum to previous posts reasons why not to install a rack and related to this one:
You will also retain your stock turning radius by just rebuilding! Something you will lose when you change to the rack.
I have been using BILSTEIN shocks for the last couple of year also. I truly belive that these are the "magic bullet" needed to tame your front end. The ride quality is very much improved.
Lastly a good anti-roll bar would do wonders for your handling as well as a good quality set of tires!
Most people these days have driven a modern vehicle with a rack and pinion steering. They drive very well, nicely weighted steering with little effort.
What's not to like?
The problem is rack and pinion steering systems were an advancement of IFS suspensions. A totally different system compared to the beam or split beam axle. Flaming River Industries in conjunction with Dominiator Motorsports has introduced a totally aftermarket split I-beam with a rack and pinion. It does work! Fairly ingenious product but for the effort I highly doubt it would out perform a standard beam axle with similar shocks and springs. The only advantage is the addition of the rack.
A rack and pinion is such a beautifly simple bit of machinery. Given hot rod nature we want to make things better and presented with such a simple part witch by anyone's experience with works very well, it seems natural to want to stick it on anything that steers.
That make any sense?
I seriously belive that a true rebuild of your stock steering gear, king pins and tie rods would benifit you much more than ditching it all in favor of a rack.
:Below is an addendum to previous posts reasons why not to install a rack and related to this one:
You will also retain your stock turning radius by just rebuilding! Something you will lose when you change to the rack.
I have been using BILSTEIN shocks for the last couple of year also. I truly belive that these are the "magic bullet" needed to tame your front end. The ride quality is very much improved.
Lastly a good anti-roll bar would do wonders for your handling as well as a good quality set of tires!
If you do need to get in touch, please use my Email at info@industrialchassisinc.com or post a message on my Facebook Page
Thank you,
Steve
Thank you,
Steve
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mikecarson
- Posts: 596
- Joined: July 9, 2006, 5:59 am
- Location: Richland, Texas
- Contact:
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ICEMAN6166
- Posts: 11470
- Joined: July 11, 2006, 11:28 am
- Location: Dove Creek, Co. elevation 6842
with little effort.
that is the part i dont like.
means you can steer with 2 fingers instead of both hands.so they do.
this is why i picked up all those rolled over cars and trucks from the sides of the icy or rain slicked roads.
common story went something like this:
" gee i was just driving along and all of a sudden next thing i know i was slipping, tried to correct it then i was back and forth all over the road, caught the edge and down the side it went."
these were all newer vehicles, not 20,30 ,or 40 years old. did not have to recover many of those from the ditch.
it seems the easier you make it to drive, the less folks pay attention to the driving.
i have driven some of the newer cars and trucks.call me what you wish, i did not like them and will not own one.
size counts for me too.i wont even ride as a passenger in a small car or mini-truck.a ranger is about it, or an aerostar van.
that is the part i dont like.
means you can steer with 2 fingers instead of both hands.so they do.
this is why i picked up all those rolled over cars and trucks from the sides of the icy or rain slicked roads.
common story went something like this:
" gee i was just driving along and all of a sudden next thing i know i was slipping, tried to correct it then i was back and forth all over the road, caught the edge and down the side it went."
these were all newer vehicles, not 20,30 ,or 40 years old. did not have to recover many of those from the ditch.
it seems the easier you make it to drive, the less folks pay attention to the driving.
i have driven some of the newer cars and trucks.call me what you wish, i did not like them and will not own one.
size counts for me too.i wont even ride as a passenger in a small car or mini-truck.a ranger is about it, or an aerostar van.
1966 F250 4x4
1964 Rambler Ambassador 990
Rest in peace departed Slick family members
Cam Milam
Lesley Ferguson
Steve Lopes
John Sutton
1964 Rambler Ambassador 990
Rest in peace departed Slick family members
Cam Milam
Lesley Ferguson
Steve Lopes
John Sutton
Ain't that the truth. With all the DVD players, cell phones, autmatic dimmer rear view mirrors and now SELF PARKING cars, your moring commute turns you into a mere passenger!it seems the easier you make it to drive, the less folks pay attention to the driving.
Driving skills are just not ecouraged these days.
You should see what a disaster Phoenix traffic is like with a mere sprinkling of rain. Everyone either drives like a bat out of hell or slows down to a crawl in fear of a spin out. A hail storm shuts this place down for hours!
If you do need to get in touch, please use my Email at info@industrialchassisinc.com or post a message on my Facebook Page
Thank you,
Steve
Thank you,
Steve
Don't forget people who use their cruise control in icy conditions. I think it's dangerous when the pace of advancement outstrips the knowledge of the average human being.
This discussion reminds me of the suspension setup on my dad's 88 T-Bird. It has rack-and-pinion steering but it doesn't seem to balance well with the suspension tuning. Quick steering combined with soft shocks makes for an odd combination.
This discussion reminds me of the suspension setup on my dad's 88 T-Bird. It has rack-and-pinion steering but it doesn't seem to balance well with the suspension tuning. Quick steering combined with soft shocks makes for an odd combination.
While I would not disagree with what has said here I would add that and I am assuming that a new crosmember will be added to the truck for rack to bolt to the new Ford trucks and Dodge trucks now come with a rack and I have not seen any failures in these trucks
The Aerostar van has the most severe angle that comes to mind on the joint and I don't think that it would be as much in a slick.
As far as strength goes they are not as strong as steering gear however a pot hole doesnt tend to harm but more of a direct hit on the wheel. I have seen them broke in half and still turn lock to lock.
Having said all that call me a candy but I do like my power steering as they are more a joy to drive but I am not a fan of the rack more because I think it is a cheap set up but it is very effective and cost wise is cheaper to replace when it goes south.
Bit
The Aerostar van has the most severe angle that comes to mind on the joint and I don't think that it would be as much in a slick.
As far as strength goes they are not as strong as steering gear however a pot hole doesnt tend to harm but more of a direct hit on the wheel. I have seen them broke in half and still turn lock to lock.
Having said all that call me a candy but I do like my power steering as they are more a joy to drive but I am not a fan of the rack more because I think it is a cheap set up but it is very effective and cost wise is cheaper to replace when it goes south.
Bit
100 Years from now it will matter
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Johnny Canuck
- Posts: 8291
- Joined: April 9, 2006, 11:14 pm
- Location: Edmonton, Alberta.
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Truckfarmer
- Posts: 324
- Joined: April 3, 2006, 5:53 pm
- Location: Illinois
I have a hard time believing that Rob at No Limit Engineering would sell an inferior design, one that hasn't been thoroughly thought through. Especially after all the negative hype that Heidt's got a couple years ago about his Mustang II IFS. His entire livelyhood is centered around classic trucks. He goes to a lot of shows and would have to face us and our concerns.
I am curious as to how the steering shaft from the rack to column slides inside of itself when you hit a bump. It has to be able to expand and contract as road conditions dictate but yet be tight enough as to not be sloppy. Guess I will have to wait until I see him at the Supernats or until someone here buys the kit and shows all of us.
I am curious as to how the steering shaft from the rack to column slides inside of itself when you hit a bump. It has to be able to expand and contract as road conditions dictate but yet be tight enough as to not be sloppy. Guess I will have to wait until I see him at the Supernats or until someone here buys the kit and shows all of us.
If you drove a Ford, you wouldn't need a good wrench!
Bit, I think you need to go back and re-read the post because I think you missed the point. Yes, new Ford, GM, Dodge half ton trucks all have rack and pinions now. Great observation, did you happen to notice that all of those trucks are SLA, double A frame IFS systems?
Not one is a beam axle with a rack and pinion strapped to it. And on top of that all meet the criteria I layed out.
I'm not busting your nuts, I just want to be real clear and concise about what we are talking about.
Not one is a beam axle with a rack and pinion strapped to it. And on top of that all meet the criteria I layed out.
I'm not busting your nuts, I just want to be real clear and concise about what we are talking about.
Really? Cause I don't have a hard time beliving it. I have had to clean up some of his messes from time to time. Like the brake booster adapter kits and funky Volare' installation "kits" they have offered in the past. So this one isn't a shocker really, I just thought he was getting better in his designs. Guess not.I have a hard time believing that Rob at No Limit Engineering would sell an inferior design, one that hasn't been thoroughly thought through.
If you do need to get in touch, please use my Email at info@industrialchassisinc.com or post a message on my Facebook Page
Thank you,
Steve
Thank you,
Steve
Garbz and I were discussing this just yesterday.
Ever see broken dash mounts on the '64 and earlier trucks?
I sure have. Plenty of cracks and broken column drops from the 20's on up. All of those cars and trucks have the steering box and column shaft as one piece and are mounted between the frame and dash board. Just the slight movement between the cab and frame causes stress fractures over time on moderate to rough road conditions.
Can you just for a minute stop and think of how much more force is going to be transfered into the lower part of your steering column from suspension movement? How about how much force are your steering universals going to have to absorb, how about the slip shaft. How long do you seriously think any of that stuff is going to last regardless of any other design flaws?
Point being, Steering components are not designed for this sort of useage. It is a bad design, period.
Ever see broken dash mounts on the '64 and earlier trucks?
I sure have. Plenty of cracks and broken column drops from the 20's on up. All of those cars and trucks have the steering box and column shaft as one piece and are mounted between the frame and dash board. Just the slight movement between the cab and frame causes stress fractures over time on moderate to rough road conditions.
Can you just for a minute stop and think of how much more force is going to be transfered into the lower part of your steering column from suspension movement? How about how much force are your steering universals going to have to absorb, how about the slip shaft. How long do you seriously think any of that stuff is going to last regardless of any other design flaws?
Point being, Steering components are not designed for this sort of useage. It is a bad design, period.
If you do need to get in touch, please use my Email at info@industrialchassisinc.com or post a message on my Facebook Page
Thank you,
Steve
Thank you,
Steve
you know what, I want to add something else.
I have met Rob face to face several times. He has been to a few of my open house events, we know eachother on a professional basis. We even have mutal friends so there is no bad blood and I am not trying to speak poorly of him personally.
I just want to point out that this is not the best product they have ever offered and I am trying to be as A-political as possible here.
I have met Rob face to face several times. He has been to a few of my open house events, we know eachother on a professional basis. We even have mutal friends so there is no bad blood and I am not trying to speak poorly of him personally.
I just want to point out that this is not the best product they have ever offered and I am trying to be as A-political as possible here.
If you do need to get in touch, please use my Email at info@industrialchassisinc.com or post a message on my Facebook Page
Thank you,
Steve
Thank you,
Steve
Thanks JC and same goes here . Steve have you ever straitened the frame on one of these trucks with the wheel drove up through the floor board? I have and the way I see it if the rack will withstand that kinda blow or have a set of 35's on it I don't think a staight axle will hurt it much.
I also staited that the rack should be bolted to a crossmember.
I also stated that I wasn't disagreeing with anyone and that I didn't care much for them myself.
I know you are good at what you do and I know that I am good at what I do but that doesn't make either one of us an expert and until you set down and try something you just really do not know.
Not busting your balls just making myself clear.
Bit
. Steve have you ever straitened the frame on one of these trucks with the wheel drove up through the floor board? I have and the way I see it if the rack will withstand that kinda blow or have a set of 35's on it I don't think a staight axle will hurt it much.I also staited that the rack should be bolted to a crossmember.
I also stated that I wasn't disagreeing with anyone and that I didn't care much for them myself.
I know you are good at what you do and I know that I am good at what I do but that doesn't make either one of us an expert and until you set down and try something you just really do not know.
Not busting your balls just making myself clear.
Bit
100 Years from now it will matter
I didn't even raise the question of the rack ruggedness. It's a non-issue in this case.
What is at stake is poor design and insuffecient steering components.
I don't want to discount your experience, while you may be able to I-CAR and other repair industry centers do not focus on suspension design. I have 15+ years of suspension design, theory and practical application in the hot rodding field. I have read plenty of books, read and participated in engineering classes and websites such as Engineering Pro-Tips society of automotive suspensions design and performance analysis. I have designed from scratch and repaired broken or botched designs. I am speaking from experience when I say this rack attached to the axle is a bad deal.
Mounting the rack to a crossmember would solve the problem of suspension induced influence into the steering column and U-joints. That however creates a whole new set of problems. If you merely attach the rack and pinion tie rod ends to the spindles you will have dramatic toe change as the axle articulates.
Severe bump steer!
The only two ways I have seen it done is the tradional twin I-beam system mimicked by Flaming River, and Maval/Uni-steer's system.
http://www.unisteer.com/product.php?pro ... 250&page=1
The Unisteer system is unique in that it creates a cross steer situation similar to the later twin I-beam situation. But these too will have problems because of the way they induce steering shock loads into the frame rail. Without proper reinforcement they will stress and fail the frame member they are attached to. I know because I have seen attempted cross steer ssystems attempted using recirculating ball screw boxes.
What is at stake is poor design and insuffecient steering components.
I don't want to discount your experience, while you may be able to I-CAR and other repair industry centers do not focus on suspension design. I have 15+ years of suspension design, theory and practical application in the hot rodding field. I have read plenty of books, read and participated in engineering classes and websites such as Engineering Pro-Tips society of automotive suspensions design and performance analysis. I have designed from scratch and repaired broken or botched designs. I am speaking from experience when I say this rack attached to the axle is a bad deal.
Mounting the rack to a crossmember would solve the problem of suspension induced influence into the steering column and U-joints. That however creates a whole new set of problems. If you merely attach the rack and pinion tie rod ends to the spindles you will have dramatic toe change as the axle articulates.
Severe bump steer!
The only two ways I have seen it done is the tradional twin I-beam system mimicked by Flaming River, and Maval/Uni-steer's system.
http://www.unisteer.com/product.php?pro ... 250&page=1
The Unisteer system is unique in that it creates a cross steer situation similar to the later twin I-beam situation. But these too will have problems because of the way they induce steering shock loads into the frame rail. Without proper reinforcement they will stress and fail the frame member they are attached to. I know because I have seen attempted cross steer ssystems attempted using recirculating ball screw boxes.