E-85 "Gasoline"

Mellvis · Post by **Mellvis** » June 27, 2011, 4:34 pm

So, let me show my ignorance one more time. What stops us from running this stuff in our trucks.......or my 1984 Cougar (3.8 Fuel Injected)? My understanding is that it is 85% standard issue gasoline and 15% Ethanol. Will it detonate the same as regular gasoline, or does it require different combustion characteristics? What's the deal?

The Big M · Post by **The Big M** » June 27, 2011, 5:06 pm

It's the other way around. That is, e85 is actually 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. Ethanol has less energy content per unit volume than gasoline,and has a higher effective octane rating, so the fuel mixture, spark timing, and amount of fuel delivered per cycle would all need to be adjusted. You'd also need to ensure that all the components of the fuel system were compatible with ethanol.

I personally think it's best suited to high-compression and forced induction engines.

Uncle Skip · Post by **Uncle Skip** » June 27, 2011, 5:11 pm

Mellvis.
That is not an ignorant question.
Ethanol (alcohol) is a very substandard fuel source. Its used at Indy because those cars are engineered to use it and to reduce fire danger in crashes. It doesn't have the low flash point of gasoline and burns a lot cooler.
I probably could go into a chemistry lecture about the molecule structures and why the BTUs produced per unit are different, but just say that the heat energy per liter of alcohol is less than half that of gasoline.
That also has the unfortunate effect of having to use more fuel to get the same power. It also costs more per gallon to produce ethanol fuel than gasoline.
But the really bad part about alcohol is that alcohol absorbs water out of the atmosphere and goes bad very quickly, leaving that white residue in your fuel tank and a really bad smell.
Not quite the problem for big motors as it is for smaller ones like lawn equipment and motorcycles.
If it sits a few weeks it goes sour. You can actually smell the process.
Always use fuel stabilizer when you don't drive your cars and trucks every day.
Alcohol also reacts differently to the rubber parts in you fuel system.
I had a Carter electric fuel pump go bad in less than six months. When I took it apart, the impeller vanes had swollen and stopped the motor.
Just my long winded way of saying (I THINK) its a bogus man made global warming eco-ripoff.

Mellvis · Post by **Mellvis** » June 27, 2011, 6:08 pm

So, like Grandpa said, corn is for growing and making whiskey. Gasoline is for transporting corn.........to make whiskey, and then transporting whiskey! Ah, the cycle of corn is a wonderful thing.

Truckrat · Post by **Truckrat** » June 27, 2011, 6:10 pm

Well said Skip! My hat is off to you. Talked to a guy at the pumps who burned E85 in his late model truck set up for it one day when I was refueling and he said he got about half the mileage out of it that he got from E10 (10% ethanol). His truck was flex fuel equipped so he can burn about any of it. Said he wouldn't use it anymore unless he had to because of the lousy mileage. As for our trucks, I only burn 100% gas. Costs more, but better for them. TR

Uncle Skip · Post by **Uncle Skip** » June 27, 2011, 6:50 pm

Gary.
You only have to look at the molecule structure to understand the coefficients of energy potential.
It takes energy to form a complex molecule, and then that heat energy is released when that molecule is taken apart.
(By the way, there is no such thing as cold, only the relative absence of heat).
The more carbon in a chain, the more energy is required to make the chain.
Ergo, when that carbon chain is is burned the more energy is released.
Ethanol is C2OH6
Iso-octane (gasoline) is C8H16.
You tell me.
Damn, I did it again didn't I?

Toyz · Post by **Toyz** » June 27, 2011, 6:57 pm

At the current local price of $3.40 per gallon for E85, I probably would not choose to use ethanol if I owned a flex fuel vehicle.
I do run it in one of my SVO's (when it's streetable). The E85 high octane equivalents and charge cooling abilities are the strong points.
Contrary to popular opinion, I have seen no deterioration in the fuel delivery system, or the fuel itself. I was extremely concerned after the car was surrounded by IKE floodwaters for days. Upon draining the tank some time later, I found nothing to indicate the fuel had picked up water.
Currently, I am considering my plans for the car. I may go back to E10, dial back and attempt to control the boost (Holset HE351)in order to use it for an economical daily driver. Propane injection might prove another viable option.
Extended periods of 26 PSI boost and extremely spirited driving MIGHT decrease my fuel economy by half, but my guess based on very limited road usage would be more in the area of a 20% overall reduction. If I encountered a 50% reduction on a Flex fuel vehicle, I would suspect sensor malfunctions.
As they say, YMMV!

Post by **Kid** » June 27, 2011, 8:13 pm

My wife and I use E-85 as much as we can. My mileage is only about 10 percent less than with regular gas and the price is about 20 to 25 percent less so what you give up in mileage you gain is savings. I figured it out and the cost per mile is about 3 or 4 cents a mile cheaper to run the E-85. I use E-10 in everything we own except the flex fuel vehicles and do not have any problems with moisture or gas going bad. I use E-10 in my 65 and it was parked all winter with no stabilizer additives at all and have not had any problems at all with it since I pulled it out of storage. The cars being built today could burn up to 40 percent Ethanol without any problems and no special Computer like the flex fuel cars.The Ethanol burns cleaner and the oil in the engine stays clean. I can extend the oil change intervals to about 1,000 more miles than if we dont use E-85. I personaly think Ethanol is the answer but not sure if being made from corn is the best, sawgrass is a much better way to make ethanol and so is cane as Brazil uses and has used sine the 70's when they were smart enough to get away from oil importing from other countries, Brazil uses 90 to 95 percent Ehthanol and we could import Ethanol from them cheaper than we can import oil but the crooks in the oil industry has the Govt convinced not to let that happen...............kid

Mellvis · Post by **Mellvis** » June 27, 2011, 9:25 pm

I always have do try things myself, so maybe the motorcycle might get a tank of it. It's fuel system is simpler than my riding mower so it's easy to fix problems.

Toyz · Post by **Toyz** » June 27, 2011, 10:12 pm

Mellvis,
As Skip mentioned, I would be reluctant to try E85 in a bike until I was certain all parts of the fuel system were compatible. Other than for sheer personal knowledge, I am not sure there are enough advantages of any kind unless you are dealing with high compression ratios or forced induction. IMO, the mixture would require experimentation and adjustment unless computer controlled injection.
Kid, very valid points except for the rapidly changing price advantage, at least in my area. I can buy 91 octane as cheap as E85, and E85 is hard to find in the Houston area. While I have on-the-fly programming capacities, I am not sure I would want to attempt an extended road trip where availability might be limited, especially with 88 lb. injectors.
The proposed elimination or reduction of subsidies will no doubt also affect price/ benefit equations in the short term. I do agree that alternate sources are available and hold promise.
Paul

Sarg · Post by **Sarg** » June 28, 2011, 9:40 pm

You will need a method to add roughly 33% more fuel (or more depending on application and compression) to the bike, car, whatever. E85 is GREAT! It is like cheap race gas, but you have to be set up to run it. As mentioned above, it is awesome on forced induction vehicles.

Post by **Kid** » June 29, 2011, 7:29 pm

They are building a new plant here that will use corn cobs, corn stalks, grass clippings, and tree branches and mulch for making Ethanol. They say it will make it get the same mileage of regular gas and will be considerable cheaper as it will have less cost to make. have to wait and see how well it works out, They say it should be up and runing in 2012...........Kid

Uncle Skip · Post by **Uncle Skip** » June 29, 2011, 7:33 pm

Kid.
"They say?"
Unless someone has perfected the flux capacitor, the laws of physics are not negotiable.
I say, bullshit.

Sarg · Post by **Sarg** » June 29, 2011, 8:09 pm

Yes and no. They have done testing on extremely high compression vehicles and found that they could get similar gas mileage as normal compression vehicles on gasoline. Modern gasoline motors are not made to to utilize the full potential of E85 with their low compression. They have tested motors up to around 16:1 compression that ran det free on E85.

Toyz · Post by **Toyz** » June 29, 2011, 8:30 pm

Sounds kind of like the Ecoboost and other similar designs. Or they could just add a few more compression points....... Oh, wait, that sounds like Mr. Rudolf's work.
Paul

Max · Post by **Max** » June 29, 2011, 10:38 pm

I figure if they can make penicillin out of bread mold then they can make mogas out of corn cobs. Just don't raise the price on my popcorn now. That'll piss me off!

HEITZ · Post by **HEITZ** » July 1, 2011, 8:42 am

Ethanol fuel blends serve their purpose but the user had better take precautions when using them.

Ethanol has an infinity for atmospheric moisture and will absorb it until the fuel reachs saturation and then the water will seperate and lay in the bottom of your fuel tank. Given that most cars have no fuel drain fixtures, this is problematic. The water in the tank will induce corrosion almost immediately and if your running a steel tank like our old trucks this could lead to a fuel tank failure. If your in an arid environment, no problem - if your anywhere else, top off the tank to reduce the amount of moisture laiden air that can get in the tank before you park the vehicle for an extended time. You should use a fuel stabilizer (Sta-Bil or Sea Breeze) at the time of fill up. This keeps the water from seperating in the fuel system, Octane and power from the fuel will be impacted but it will burn in the engine and keeps the water out of the tank.

Ethanol is a solvent..... you heard me a solvent. It will break down the elastomers in rubber fuel system components, causing failure. It will also break down the elastomers in FRP fuel tanks used for marine applications and re-deposit it in the upstream fuel delivery system causing failure. It will corrode the filaments in your fuel level guage and destroy that as well.

If you have a small engine (lawn mower, tiller or the like), top off the tank or run the fuel out of it entirely before putting in storage. Use a spark proof steel can with a spring loaded spot to store your gas. If you have a small engine and it won't start take the sediment bulb off and pour out the water that has collected - 99% of the time this is the probem. This will down right scare the hell out of you.... and leave you wondering how many gallons of water are trapped in your Slick's fuel tank.

I'm in Mississippi (HOT and HUMID) and this is a big PROBLEM for boaters, hot rodders and the general public. I read an article in the local sportsmans guide where a Marine engine mechanic was interviewed, he stated that the culprit for engine issues that he sees (in most cases) is from Ethanol fuel.

Buy straight gasoline if you can. If you can't, then you'd better know the issues related to running Ethanol blends and how to deal with it or you will be left stranded along the highway, lake or other.

Corn should be made into silage as fuel for cattle ............ not gas for my car!

ICEMAN6166 · Post by **ICEMAN6166** » July 1, 2011, 9:45 am

glad i dont have to deal with that imitation gas here.

Toyz · Post by **Toyz** » July 1, 2011, 7:35 pm

A SOLVENT? OMG, gasoline is also a solvent. Not sure about Sea Breeze (astringent?) . Sea Foam, Berryman B-12, WD-40, etc. -solvents!
Hell, if there is in fact gallons trapped, you gonna need a bunch of Sta-bil or some sort of super phase separation retardant.
Ethanol blends certainly can be problematic; E-15 alone has the potential to really screw up marine applications.
It's also hot and humid along Galveston Bay but I am not ready to give up on my limited E85 usage at this point, and sincerely hope that it remains a viable product, albeit preferably from better sources and free from artificial incentives.
Paul

Alan Mclennan · Post by **Alan Mclennan** » July 1, 2011, 8:41 pm

Last year while we were in the states!, Lyn over heard two guy`s talking about corn being used to make ethanol, some where near where a new plant was being built, they said that the corn was still good to feed to cattle and hog`s after the process, that`s a plus if that is correct I`d say!. The catch cry here should be! ADAPT!, this is the way it`s going to be, if we like it or not!, and if there`s some way of giving less money too the Arabs!, I`m all for it!. Another way to get rid of water in the tank is put some Metho in there, works well!. that's my 2 bob`s worth.